The title as such does not really interest me (in a positive way) as I will always listen to the podcast (and yes, although you’ve never heard of me, I’ve been a loyal listerener since podcast number 1). So, the extra information is not really necessary.

But I do understand that it might me more informative for new listerers and that searche engines might catch up a little better.

And no, Neil and Gary, I don’t think that you will be picking up this podcast any better with a new title

And yes, I’m from the Jarsto country.

You said it; we understood it; communication was achieved. Anyone that dares gripe to you should be forced to transcribe all past episodes for the hearing impaired. That’ll learn ‘em.

And don’t gripe about the use of “Zhadum” in the podcast title for Show #109… podpress just wouldn’t take the apostrophes without pitching a fit. Works fine for the blog post title though, so maybe the post title will supercede.

Thank you for all your hard work just to please me. Like Gary says, “You Rock!”

About part of the chalk line on the floor. Tim, Tim, Tim, Tim, Tim… *head-shake* I’m kind of surprised you’d nitpick on that and forget that there was also a ritual taking place at a very specific time /before/ that pink “wall” appears. However. I really think it’s not /supposed/ to be anything other than metaphysical and it is, indeed, rooted in religion and beliefs from various cultures rather than anything scientific. I mean, you don’t expect for Londo’s obsessive dreaming about the exact details of his death to be scientifically explained, do you? “Centauri can do that” is all the explanation that we have and it’s fine, yes?

Now about Morden and all that. Mm. This might take me a bit to explain–why /this/ makes more sense than Marcus–so bear with me, please. See, to me, those visitations were never about the closure for me–they were always about fear, pain and regret in some way. It just so happens that, say, captain’s biggest internal struggle was Zoe. It just so happens that Londo’s biggest pain (at the time) was Adira. It just so happens that, perhaps, Michael really regrets he didn’t have the chance to have something with Dodger that he might’ve wanted (and it was on the forefront of his thoughts). The fact that they all had managed to have closure is, for me, is a side-bonus rather than the purpose of these visits. The only two visits that had actual purpose, for me, was Zoe and Morden, as a matter of fact, and I sort of processed it as one having a message from the Vorlons while the other from the Shadows (yes, specifically these two).

Now, having said all this, I’ll try to explain why Morden was the only real option that would work and why Marcus, specifically, wouldn’t work. Yes, he’s probably the only genuine friend of this sort that Lenir had. Yes, he’s a Ranger. Yes, he most certainly knows of unrequited love more than anyone else in Lenir’s circle. But. Non of the visitors had “a great knowledge of the universe” or any insight that they /didn’t/ have in life. (Zoe’s message from Kosh was just as spontaneous and out of blue as Morden’s to Lenir, was it not?) How could Marcus tell Lenir to get a grip on himself when /he/ (Marcus) himself could not and did something just as “stupid and senseless” in the name of love? And Marcus himself /also/ joined the Rangers for all the wrong reasons, which he was pointed out to on several occasions by Lenir, all of which he disregarded. And /now/ he’d be the one lecturing about the same thing? To me, that would’ve been really awkward and, ultimately, redundant and completely against the previous arcs of the story-line. I think that the point with Lenir was to be faced with his fear and denial and since it appears that he had to /remain/ in that state–no one would’ve served that warning up better than Morden, specifically /because/ he is part of that fear (in a way) /and/ is “easily” disregarded by Lenir as some sort of silly anomaly that he “just dreamed up while being not in the best of states of mind” (stress of training, internal struggles and so forth).
One last note. I completely agree with you, Tim–bringing in “popular comedians” was completely useless gesture for me as well. I don’t think their appearance contributed anything of interest and significance and, frankly, was an annoying filler that I wish wasn’t there at all.

Ah, yes, thank you Gary for finding a compact way to put into words what I was thinking. I didn’t want to go into a massive argument of why, but that is more or less my thinking as well.

Also, thanks for recommending the reading material–I’ll look into it. Well, most of it. Being a Russian Jew–I’m more of a Brothers Strugatsky style school of Sci-Fi and, in all honesty, Azimov is not my favourite author. If I had to pick someone “in his category”–I’d go with Frank Herbert rather than Azimov.

Speaking of Strugatsky, though–there is a moment in B5 that, for me, just walked straight out of the pages of their novel “Roadside Picnic” and I’ve always wondered if JMS is a fan of their writing. Pity I didn’t know about him being interviewed by you, guys, in advance enough to ask him about this. The episode I’m talking about is first season’s “Mind War”, where Catherine is saved by G’Kar. the specific moment I’m curious about is where both of them are standing at the flower stand and when Catherine asks G’Kar about whom, does he think, she encountered–he answers her by pointing to an ant. That allegory, in specific reference to “who do you think those aliens are” is something I only saw in “Roadside Picnic” and ever since I saw B5 for the first time–this keeps nagging at me.

If you like that sort of future universe stuff, you might want to give the First, and/or Second Foundation Trilogy a read. Asimov, and other authors like Gregory Benford, Greg Bear and David Brin write some great stuff. They deal with empires being built and destroyed, and uniting the Galaxy together.

The first book in the series, Foundation, is one of the few books I read yearly. I finally found a hard cover after going through three paperback editions. I keep hoping Summer will do a KAMN episode on it at some point.

Yes, Lorien is another puzzle (for me). As a general note first, though, I have to say that I’ve watched the whole series, beginning to end, about seven times now (I do it at least once a year–yes, I’m this obsessed with B5 ) and every single time I find something new there–from a simple thought to a concept that I haven’t thought of before or even considered. I also discover new layers about each and every character every time, too.

Now to my point. At first I, too, thought that Lorien is the first being in creation, a proto-Adam, if you will. However. The more I watch the series–the stronger I get this feeling that whatever happens in it is restricted to our galaxy and that is it. So, overtime I’ve come to the conclusion that Lorien, in fact, is the first being in our galaxy, specifically, rather than the whole Universe and, rankly, that makes more sense to me. Yes, he is /old/, but to be the very first in the entire universe–he’d have to be ancient in comparison to the /old/ him. (I hope my babbling actually makes sense to someone other than me. )

And now I’m going to listen to the new podcast, after which I’ll probably continue to ramble there.

Been wanting to do that ever since I bought the first copy, and REALLY wanting to do that ever since I moved within driving distance!

As for Marie Marshall and Jerry Doyle’s previous history, that sure makes her comments to and about him in GROPOS just that much funnier!

I got my copy signed by Neil Gaiman at the CBLDF booth at the Small Press Expo (SPX) in Bethesda one year. At some signings, he made additional changes to the script books, correcting some typos, etc. (Not at the one where I was, though.)

I also remember Jerry Doyle mentioning at a local convention appearance something about Marie Marshall. If by some chance I can find my writeup I’ll add another comment or call in.

On June 30, 1997 JMS said, “No, I have no intention of writing all of S5…I’ll probably do
about what I did in S1-2, writing 11-15, with the rest being assigned
out of the arc. And Neil Gaiman has said he’s now in a place where he
can tackle one, so I hope to work out something with him, a story worth
his doing, to make that happen at last.”

On June 15, 1994, JMS said “And yes, there will be some new writers freelancing for us this
season; I’m talking to writers like Peter David, and Scott Frost (from
Twin Peaks and X-Files), a few others…and I’m going to keep hammering
at Neil Gaiman to do us a script until he finally does one just to make
me go away.”

I wonder if any Neil Gaiman fans tried out B5 just to see his episode. I think they would not have been disappointed. I like most of his work that I have read.

The whole date issue gets complicated because I think they are still two weeks ahead in recording (Yea!). As a result instead of staggering one week, they need to stagger two. I guess time travel is confusing for all parties.

Thanks for more background on the story. As nice as it would have been to see Marcus visit Lennier, death issues aside, It would have pulled Lennier from his ultimate fate. Marcus would have certainly had a thing or two to say about unrequited love. It might have changed Lennier’s entire point of view.

As nice as it was to see a big name comedy team in the roles, I think it could have been pulled off by regular actors without much of difference from the finished product.

Given that this is one of the few stories not written by JMS, I’m willing to overlook and even like that it’s not so tightly knotted into the rest of the B5 story. I’m reminded of what JMS says about Sheridan coming in as Sinclair leaves. It’s unbelievable to have one person do everything. Not everything in the universe is about Babylon 5, it’s nice to bring off station characters into the mix.

So the question to put to Neil Gaiman would be “What about Mr Morden intrigued you so that you needed to have him as one of those returned from the dead?”

Of course I just like Neil Gaiman anyway so that probably had something to do with it.

Why didn’t you have Marcus visit Lennier?

I didn’t write it. It’s Neil’s script. The characters he chose are the ones he wanted to play with.

———

I haven’t found any comment by Neil Gaiman about this or any other by JMS. From the JMSNews site this answer is in response to the questions (on 3/13/1998):
>Why didn’t JMS bring Ivanova back to B5 to be visited by >Marcus Cole, her brother, or her father?

>Why didn’t JMS put Sheridan in the zone to be visited by
> Kosh or Anne Sheridan?

——————-

About Rebo & Zooty – JMS wrote: “Neil wrote for R&Z, and we looked around for casting…it occurred to someone — may have been me, maybe casting, I don’t remember — that it might be better to use a real comedy team than create one. B5 called P&T, and they said yes.”

Fantasy writer Neil Gaiman was inspired to write this story when he heard of the Jewish concept of an eruv, a shared physical domain that allows Jews to carry objects from one household to another on Shabbat, the Jewish Sabbath. According to a literal reading of the Torah (the five books of Moses) it would seem that one may not leave one’s household on the Sabbath, which the rabbis found both impractical and not in the spirit of the holiday. Rabbinic literature records the development of the eruv as a legal device which allows Jews in a community to symbolically, or in many views literally, merge their separate domains into one shared domain, thus allowing carrying and travel on the Sabbath. The idea of sharing distinct domains for a religious purpose was taken by Gaiman and expanded upon: what if one legally borrowed a domain that is far from one’s home world? What if this merging of domains was made manifest in a literal and physical sense? The episode’s storyline develops from Gaiman’s extension of this idea.

How much do you have to get involved in outside scripts?

It varies, I get involved to different degrees with different writers; with Neil, it was more “What do you want to write?” He noodled around with some ideas, ran one past me that he liked, and I liked it…he asked for a truckload of scripts for reference, picked the characters he wanted to use, researched them, we talked on the phone and via email a number of times as he refined his ideas further, then wrote the script. I tucked and nipped a little here and there, but pretty much left it alone.
————

How did Neil know what Kosh’s message should be?

Actually, in that scene, Neil didn’t write Kosh’s message. He asked what it would be, and I gave him that, knowing that I’d been looking for a way to slip that in as early as season 4.

Lorien tells Sheridan that he is the First of the First. From him, all beings came into existence. (Yet, he never claims the title of God. Interesting.) I got the sense from Lorien’s words that as Life populated the galaxy, the finite amount of life energy divided and divided again, so that there were few First Ones, and many more of the younger races because of this.

What’s Beyond the Rim? I think this is one of those definite homages (or plaigarisms) of Tolkien. Lorien taking Sheridan Beyond the Rim is nearly identical to Gandalf taking Frodo beyond the western sea. (Or something. My LOTR is a bit hazy right now.) It is at once metaphysical and corporeal. But I think JMS left it intentionally vague.

As far as Lyta’s doomsday weapon status, I think this is metaphorical. Everyone knows a mundane/telepath war is coming – there is much comment about it throughout the series. Lyta represents a wild card- a very dangerous, powerful wild card. She’s certainly not going to offer this power to PsiCorps, and she’s not likely to cast her lot in with the mundanes who have failed to offer gratitude for her services in the past. With no one to control her, the two factions in this coming war percieve her as a major threat to both.

Does she have the power to destroy whole worlds and populations? Probably not. But does she have the power to destroy the plans and strategies of both sides? My guess is yes. And when a government or organization cannot control something or someone, it tends to fear that someone.

“Beyond the Rim” is such a euphamism it’s hard to argue it’s literal meaning in the context of B5. Your point is certainly as valid as any other.

Seeing Lyta in season 5 really calls into question her “Doomsday Weapon” status. She seemed very passionate and involved in the telepaths clause, but I never really saw anything approaching doomsday level power with the possible exception of the Zocalo scene. And even then controlling at best a few hundred people doesn’t seem like planetary Doomsday type power. Perhaps its only in relations to First Ones, or there left over tech that her powers activate.

I will admit to being somewhat biased in the sense that I have certain belief in regards to “how the universe works” and in such discussions automatically fall back onto those beliefs (in my mind) while making my point. However. I just don’t think that mass migration in billions beyond the rim makes any sense. I mean, we are talking entire civilizations of species that were old even when Vorlons and Shadows were /young/. Vorlons and Shadows live very long, so it’s logical to assume that all of the first ones live as long or longer, yes? And if you live this long–you have to be “designed” to counter for that in your numbers. Basing my opining of a general belief that universe itself is conscious and intelligent and everything existing in it is “designed” by it to a certain degree with certain initial purposes … it kind of makes sense to me that the longer you live–the less of your kind there should generally be.

I’ve also always had a it of a puzzle with the concept of “beyond the rim” and what IS it. I mean, at first it just seems like the rest of the vastness of space beyond our own galaxy, thus completely unexplored. But then we have Lorien returning for Sharidan to, presumably, take him back “beyond the rim where others have been waiting all this time” (which /I/ understood as those others being Vorlons, Shadows and whatever other remaining First Ones that were gathered for the final battle in the confrontation with Orlon/Shadow fleets with the young races). But Sheridan was actually dying in that moment, when Lori en came for him. So … is “beyond the rim” a sort OD continuity where only beings of energy live rather than just the unknown/unexplored space? /This/ always made me wonder.

I suppose the point that the Telepath arc is still building and my own indifference about it, that makes the Hyach story seem more prominent in this episode.

You theory about population development and growth seem valid, for what we’ve experienced on Earth, but who knows with other worlds. Procreation, might be more of a conscious choice, and less of a biological imperative. Given that Lorien’s race was the first of the first ones, I’d say all bets are off. The idea that every first one civilization would be similar is stretching things a little too much in my opinion. The first ones who already went beyond the rim could measure in the millions. Maybe most already left, and the ones we see are just straglers.

About which of the two stories in the Secrets of the Soul–for me, personally, it was always about Byron and the telepaths, with everything else around it being a “filler” of sorts, so that we’d still get a general feel of “A regular day in the lives of…” thing, including the Highyak (however that is spelled) story. Or, rather, it always felt as if the story of genocide/gradual extinction was /supposed/ to be the main story but then, somehow, the line of the telepaths’ story overtook it.

About the Mimbari and Human souls “interchanging”: Delenn explicitly tells Sheridan at some point that after Valen came into their world they’ve (later on) started discovering that Mimbari souls weren’t being reborn and only after catching Sinclair (some thousand years later) did they understand that “their” souls were “going to Humans”, so to speak. But then we have Lorian (eventually) telling the tale of /his/ race had just stopped being born, and we also get sense (at least /I/ did) that whatever population had remained from the First Ones (that haven’t moved beyond the rim yet)–it’s not all that numerous either. However, Lorian also says that there weren’t many of his race (in general comparison) born to begin with and I kind of assumed the same for all of the anciant races. It made sense to me, especially if we look at how Nature works on our planet (which, I know, is not the only example of possible existence–perhaps–but it’s just logical). The longer a species lives the lesser its numbers to start with. It’s also has this sort of natural mechanism where it doesn’t reproduce as often, its offsprings don’t come in huge numbers -and- have a tougher time surviving till “adulthood”. As an opposite to, say, insects who don’t live long at all (by our standards), yet their numbers are enormous. It just makes sense that if you have a very long time span–there has to be some sort of stopper in your system to prevent you from overflowing the world with just /your/ species.

And then of course there’s the issue I brought up of other race’s telepaths. What would the ramifications be if some Centauri teeps got tired of being/never wanted to be in the first place tools of the military, for example, and they wanted to immigrate to the new telepath homeworld? I don’t doubt they’d be welcome, but I also don’t doubt that it could lead to a similar political nightmare for the IA.

Boy, this is a discussion that would be more fun on the show wouldn’t it?

Imagine all the jump capable ships on the Markab homeworld waiting to be restored to flight status. These ships could be used for trading early on. A little further stretch, would the Markab homeworld have enough resources to build or finance a new jump gate itself?

Neil – that date jibes with the general time I read those scripts.

Morden was actually intelligent and likable.

JMS’ reply was dated 6/6/2000

How exceedingly disappointing.

Those scripts were available online through a special website to read, I’m going to say sometime before 2004 (I’m sure one of the Lurkers here can give a more accurate time frame). It was a limited time, read-only setup that some enterprising folks still managed to hack to get downloadable versions of the scripts to pass around. I had mentioned not knowing about that site while it was available, while Tim had actually been lucky enough to read what was there during their limited availability.

Fortunately, I still cling to the hope that the Crusade books will be forthcoming from Synthetic Worlds and the B5 Scripts Team sometime before the end of 2010 It tests my eagerness and my patience, but there you have it!

Um, yeah–sorry. I thought of that but then you and Tim were speaking about seeing it somewhere online, but being unable to download, so I didn’t think it’d be -that- much of a not so good idea. (I know, one of those “lack of common sense even after having a moment of clarity” sort of thing. Again, though, sorry!(

That’s why no more linkie.

I’m not speaking in terms of Susan’s relationship arc, but rather, a payoff of her latent telepathy. I never felt like that was paid off satisfactorily.

Thanks for the podcasts! I enjoy them ver much.

I didn’t see anything yet on when the DVDs would be available, though, unless I was looking in the wrong places.

I have a feeling it was either only supposed to be temporary or wasn’t supposed to be posted at all.

Jan